Mark Twain Boats

Mark Twain Boat Forums => General Mark Twain Discussion => Topic started by: The Billiken Rebel on April 04, 2004, 06:07:11 PM

Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 04, 2004, 06:07:11 PM
Hello All,

I ripped up my old floor today on my 1978, 16\' V-Sonic. I have some rotted out stringers and also had some spots were they sprayed in some of that expanding foam. I was wondering if this was original (I think not). I removed all of it because of it being wet and plan on replacing it. I\'m wondering if I can fill-in ALL the areas, minus the spot for skis/storage and the spot under the engine of course. Any ideas? I\'m thinking this would make the bottom more solid. Would that be a bad thing?
One more thing MAN! Fiberglass is hard to cut.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 07, 2004, 07:41:14 AM
Gee, No advice?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Clint on April 07, 2004, 02:50:48 PM
When you say \"fill in all the areas\"...what exactly did you have in mind?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 07, 2004, 09:54:45 PM
Spray the expanding foam between the stringers from the inside hull to the bottom of the floor board. Basically filling the space between the hull and floor board. There were already some spots like this but just in spots. I already removed all that. It appears that whoever did this before drilled 1\" hole in the floor and filled the space. I removed it because it was moldy.
Thanks
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: twtchy3 on April 08, 2004, 08:59:04 AM
I\'m no expert but if i\'m not mistaken under your floorboard would be your bilge no? If so that foam would turn into a moldy sponge. If it\'s not the bilge i would think it would help with bouancy. Thats my 2 cents for what it\'s worth.
 ???
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: gwidion on April 09, 2004, 10:29:16 AM
In a fiberglass repair/rebuild book I have, they talk of putting in sealed or wrapped foam blocks between the floor support beams.  This allows the passage of water out of the inner hull around the foam blocks without any absorbtion.  Although the book is primarily  about outboards, I assume the same would apply.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 14, 2004, 07:41:57 AM
Here is a pic of the stringers. The whiter spots is where the foam was sprayed in.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 14, 2004, 07:44:04 AM
Another shot
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 14, 2004, 07:46:05 AM
One more for Fiberglass Digest.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: 1965MT on April 16, 2004, 12:50:50 PM
You can fill in every cubic inch with foam. The new foam doesn\'t absorb water too bad. Regarding flotation, the more the merrier.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: robinson94998 on April 16, 2004, 02:06:09 PM
Billken, looks like quite a project for a guy like me who has trouble driving a nail straight.  I have a \'77 180V that needs the same thing done to it, I\'m sure because I can feel a lot of \"give\" towards the back seat, plus it was stored with a lot of water in it for four or five years.

If you run across any \"tricks\", please let me know, other than that good luck on your project, I\'ll be pulling for you.

Robinson94998
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 17, 2004, 04:29:49 PM
Well I got about 20 hours off & on in the new floor. I spliced in or replaced some of the stringers. Apparently this has been done before, maybe even several times. It seems that the old stringers were made of three different kinds of wood. Some 3/4\" plywood, some pine, some cedar. I think the ceder was the original. I replaced mine with cedar. I plan on filling all the outside sections with the foam (as full as can be). I Believe the downfall for the old floor was. Past owners drilled in 1\" holes in the floor and filled the hole with the foam trapping the water that was already there in. Also he didn\'t treat the plywood around the whole allowing rot to set in. Plus the seats were screwed down once, twice, ??? times causing more holes. (I don\'t plan on screwing down my seats after I replace this. Is this a bad thing? I like the luxury of being able to move them around to clean everything.) Anyway, I have the new boards in and am now using body filler to fill in the holes, gaps, etc.. Next I am going to epoxy w/mesh the under frame and stringers. Then undercoat the new plywood (The green treated plywood) nailing it down and epoxying the top w/mesh, extra on the seams and edges. Painting the floor with White primer? (maybe What do you think?) So that\'s were I am time allowing. I\'ll keep you all posted. If anyone wants more pictures just ask.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: CSCARDS on April 19, 2004, 02:02:43 PM
I\'D LOVE TO SEE AS MANY PICS OF THE PROCESS AS YOU HAVE.  I am depating on redoing the floor in my 77 180t or parting it all out.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on April 26, 2004, 07:31:11 PM
Quote from: \"The Billiken Rebel\":2ggenxef
Well I got about 20 hours off & on in the new floor. I spliced in or replaced some of the stringers. Apparently this has been done before, maybe even several times. It seems that the old stringers were made of three different kinds of wood. Some 3/4\" plywood, some pine, some cedar. I think the ceder was the original. I replaced mine with cedar. I plan on filling all the outside sections with the foam (as full as can be). I Believe the downfall for the old floor was. Past owners drilled in 1\" holes in the floor and filled the hole with the foam trapping the water that was already there in. Also he didn\'t treat the plywood around the whole allowing rot to set in. Plus the seats were screwed down once, twice, ??? times causing more holes. (I don\'t plan on screwing down my seats after I replace this. Is this a bad thing? I like the luxury of being able to move them around to clean everything.) Anyway, I have the new boards in and am now using body filler to fill in the holes, gaps, etc.. Next I am going to epoxy w/mesh the under frame and stringers. Then undercoat the new plywood (The green treated plywood) nailing it down and epoxying the top w/mesh, extra on the seams and edges. Painting the floor with White primer? (maybe What do you think?) So that\'s were I am time allowing. I\'ll keep you all posted. If anyone wants more pictures just ask.

I am getting ready to do the exact same thing.  How are you attaching the floor to the stringers?  Epoxy?  I have a 78 twain 18\' v sonic.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on April 26, 2004, 09:02:58 PM
I haven\'t gotten that far yet. Rain, rain go AWAY!
I planned on air-nailing it down with 2\" nails. Any objections? Then again I thought about liguid nailing it down, and then again maybe wood screws? Whatever I use I\'ll be epoxying over the holes to seal them. I\'m open to ideas....

Also, I purchased a digital Camara so be looking for lots of pics to follow.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2004, 08:19:59 AM
Rebel...about the floor...I need to replace the stringers on my 1979...need to find out how to fix the drop in the middle that does not allow the middle window to shut properly...thanks..
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 11, 2004, 12:37:35 PM
Not sure what you mean by middle window shutting?
I will be posting more pics soon.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2004, 03:21:13 PM
I have a split windshield...the center window will not close properly...it overlaps...this is due to the center of the boat sagging which I think is allowing both sides to tilt downward or inward toward the center of the boat...when the flooring is put in...how far forward does it go past the fwd bulkhead....
hope this makes sense...if not I will wait for your pics....thanks
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2004, 04:49:57 PM
Ok i have a question also. The Front motor mount on my \'76 bowrider has fallen threw the floor what can i do and is it safe to run this way? i dont plan on sking or running it hard i just have to have it in my slip by a certain date or I\'ll lose it.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 11, 2004, 10:11:32 PM
Updated pic
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 11, 2004, 10:27:17 PM
Close up of Bow beam.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 11, 2004, 10:43:03 PM
After I removed the plywood I found about 5 gals of water in the bow of the boat. Whoever replaced the floor in the past did not leave any opening for water to get out. I resolved that by drilling two holes in the ski storage area (see shadowed area). I also reinforced the bow beam (a 1\" board) with 3 more cedar boards that I bolted and liquid nailed together. Later I sealed the entire beam with epoxy.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 11, 2004, 10:59:38 PM
Here is a full pic. I decided to fill-in the side sections with the expanding foam. I sealed these areas so NO (praying) water can get in. The center sections are open all the way back to the bilge pump under the motor. Last Saturday I cut out the plywood. Installed it for proper fit. Removed and applied one thick coat of epoxy to the bottom and ends. Let dry. Placed back in boat. Laid figerglass mesh over the seams and applied epoxy. Let dry. Applied another layer of mesh wider than before to the seams and applied another coat of epoxy. Let dry for 24 hours. and laid the carpet on Monday.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2004, 08:37:35 AM
Thanks for the pics...those help alot...the one of the close up of the bow beam is the one that I was referring to...that is the one that has dropped the center of my boat....your pics are of great benefit...thanks again
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 12, 2004, 08:29:32 PM
how is your motor supported in the front? is there a mount and what did it mount to? if there was do you have a picture?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 15, 2004, 02:02:24 PM
Billiken Rebel...I have torn up the deck and to my amazement  I found the spots of foam that you were referring to...must be a factory thing...anyway when you replaced the deck flooring...what did you use...the foam was also blocking the drains and not allowing the water to drain...I found a rotted mess...what were the size of your stringers?....mine are 1\"thick and 7 and one half and taper to 7\" in the last 30\"...finally when you put the deck back in...how did you replace it...I am not sure how it should be put back in...any ideas...thanks...
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 15, 2004, 05:42:19 PM
Hard to believe that the manufactuer would have shot that foam in there, But I guess you never know. My stringers were that size also. I actually used cedar decking boards as replacements. Not sure if this was proper or not but my common sense said go for it. Besides I know for sure that it\'s sealed with epoxy really good. I used wolmanized (?) grenn treated plywood 1/2 inch thick for the floor. Again not sure if this was right or not. I couldn\'t bring myself to pay $100.00 a sheet for Marine grade plywood. I\'m a cheap A$$ I guess. But there again I sealed it really well. As soon as time and weather allows I\'ll get that pic of how my motor mounts.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 15, 2004, 05:44:12 PM
Different angle
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 16, 2004, 07:05:47 AM
Looks good...and looks nice and water tight....I have one more quick question that I am having problems with...it is with the bow...the support that you placed in the middle of the walk way..how did you get it up and under the floor of the bow...I have reached up under there and there is more foam and floor decking that is wet and rotted...I am not sure how to get the flooring shored up in the middle....unless just guessing at the lenght of the shoring....what do you think...really appreciate all the help you have given....thanks again
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 16, 2004, 11:08:51 AM
thanks for the effort on the pics. its much appreciated. i look forward to seeing more
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 16, 2004, 08:46:53 PM
THAT FOAM!!!! Still having nightmares. You aren\'t going to like this but, I pulled it all out, Yes all that WET, STINKING, HARD TO GET TO MESS. I reached in there and measured as far as I could reach (guesstimation mostly). Of course I didn\'t have as big of a problem as you do. My floor was pretty sound up front. I cut them as long as I could and still get them into that space. Then I pulled them back out, Liquid nailed the heck out of them, them bolted them together as far back as I could reach and drill (wasn\'t easy). I guess I went back about a foot from the edge of the floor. I\'m hoping the liguid nail holds it mostly. I epoxied as much as I could reach in also. That\'s why I used Cedar and also 3 boards (more to rot I guess). But it should drain now also, unlike before. As far as prying up that floor to get the new boards in there? Geez, I don\'t know. You really don\'t want to pry from the bottom of the boat for obvious reasons. Man, I don\'t know? I\'d have to see it I guess. If you were close to St. Louis I\'d be happy to assist.

Sorry scotr, I work on her today and forgot the picture  :(  (kicking myself) But basically, it sits on 2x8\'s standing on ends? Not the end of the length though. Kudos to whoever put these puppies in on mine, very secure and sealed.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on May 16, 2004, 09:44:46 PM
the foam HAD to be a factory thing, mine has never been taken up (family boat), and it had the foam as well.  My foam was absoultely water logged.  How did you seal your foam up?  I don\'t know about the stringers, i am thinking of liquid nails, green treated decking wood for them, and I am debating marine plywood for the floor, or regular with the epoxy coating.  The epoxy i found online is $149.95 per two gallons online, and if the marine wood is $100 a sheet i might go that route.  Any thoughts?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 17, 2004, 06:23:20 AM
$149? I got 1 gal for about $22.00 at Home Depot/and Lowes. As far as sealing the foam. I put it in a layer at a time and estimated the expansion. I didn\'t want to have to cut any away. After it dries it kinda coats a slick coating on it which I believe wont absorb the water. I sealed the sections of stringers closed where I put the foam in. So hopefully, no water can get in in the first place.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on May 17, 2004, 06:43:57 AM
Quote from: \"The Billiken Rebel\":1g32nxx9
$149? I got 1 gal for about $22.00 at Home Depot/and Lowes. As far as sealing the foam. I put it in a layer at a time and estimated the expansion. I didn\'t want to have to cut any away. After it dries it kinda coats a slick coating on it which I believe wont absorb the water. I sealed the sections of stringers closed where I put the foam in. So hopefully, no water can get in in the first place.

what was the name of that epoxy you used?  I saw mine on a website specifically for boats.  I believe I got the site as a link off this site, something like rot doctor.com/  I will link a post after I get home where I have it bookmarked.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 17, 2004, 01:16:49 PM
I believe it was Bondo.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 17, 2004, 05:31:26 PM
just a note i ran pvc pipe on the bottom of the foam 3/4\" pipe so that the water would run through the foam and not puddle up in front of it. i\'m takling the motor mount this week i think someone has already tryed something but they oviosly didn\'t do it right. i have 3 1 by\'s screwed together. i\'ll be using 2 bys to replace them.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on May 17, 2004, 08:00:14 PM
Quote from: \"scotr3\":7qi96nkk
just a note i ran pvc pipe on the bottom of the foam 3/4\" pipe so that the water would run through the foam and not puddle up in front of it. i\'m takling the motor mount this week i think someone has already tryed something but they oviosly didn\'t do it right. i have 3 1 by\'s screwed together. i\'ll be using 2 bys to replace them.

forgive my ignorance, but how would PVC pipe help under the foam?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2004, 07:11:07 PM
the water didn\'t puddle up in front of the foam it was able to run back through the pipe.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: lilsinker on May 19, 2004, 04:22:01 PM
This is one I\'m getting ready to do myself on my \'68 18v160. I\'d like to ask just how much fun you had removing the old flooring. I\'ve got a soft spot between the front seats and fingered I\'d just go and do the whole floor.It kills me to have to do this right at the start of the season, but it needs to be done. All the pictures are great. I\'ll try to get some of mine too, as it is a closed bow it might  be somewhat different in layout. Also, there isn\'t a drain hole in my transom! Is my boat a freak? This is the only trailerable boat I\'ve had without one.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 20, 2004, 05:42:51 AM
No Drain Hole? That does sound bizzare. Just so you know I started off just wanting to replace the carpeting. Had some soft spots and cracks in the flooring. Decided to remove that and found rotted stringers, 5 gals of water, stinky water soaked foam, and problem sections with no outlet for water. I used about 5 1/2 gals. of epoxy, 2 sheets of plywood, 5- 1x8x8 Cedar deck boards, 5- 4\'x6\' fiberglass mesh, 5 small containers of body filler, 5 tubes of liquid nail, 5 cheap paint brushes, 10 cans of expanding foam, and about 4 weekends worth of labor.

I removed the flooring starting in the ski storage hole and prying it up little by little, cutting with a circular saw, jigsaw, and a dremel piece by piece.

Added Advice: Go slow, use common sense and do it right the first time.

Good Luck, Any questions feel free to ask.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 20, 2004, 04:27:13 PM
Well i tryed to post a pic of my current delima but it wont let me. I fired up the boat yesterday and the front motor mount colapsed the rest of the way through the floor. it was a B#@&% ! trying to ghet back in and on the trailer w/ no motor. I\'m gonna replace it with a doubled up two by. Any problems you guys see with that? i probably shouldn\'t have run it but i had to get something in my dock or i\'m gonna loose it.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: lilsinker on May 21, 2004, 08:48:50 AM
What a drag! Lifting the motor back up should be fun. Using good hard pressed straight grained 2by\'s sistered together should do. You might want to assemble the pieces together and check for fit, drill the holes then epoxy the crap out of it,especially the inside of the holes. The best of luck. Oh, and next time put about 40\' of line on your trailer winch. Hyuk.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: irishtomp on May 22, 2004, 09:06:32 PM
Looks like I\'m newest member of floor replacement club. My project is on a 88 Vsonic 17\" bowrider I\\O. What I\'m finding is that there dosn\'t seem to be solid wood floor under fiber cloth. In some spots there is over 1 1\\2 of resin and cloth in some spots poured right over the foam. It appears that my floor was just layed over the foam, and cloth and resin used to fill in low spots. Anyone else encounter this. Having devil of time trying to cut along side stringers. Can\'t really tell where they are under all the resin and cloth. Any advise or help? Thanks
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on May 22, 2004, 11:08:09 PM
Quote from: \"irishtomp\":uzdn2urd
Looks like I\'m newest member of floor replacement club. My project is on a 88 Vsonic 17\" bowrider I\\O. What I\'m finding is that there dosn\'t seem to be solid wood floor under fiber cloth. In some spots there is over 1 1\\2 of resin and cloth in some spots poured right over the foam. It appears that my floor was just layed over the foam, and cloth and resin used to fill in low spots. Anyone else encounter this. Having devil of time trying to cut along side stringers. Can\'t really tell where they are under all the resin and cloth. Any advise or help? Thanks

If you\'re going to replace part, i\'d just replace the whole thing.  You probably will have to eventually anyways.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: jack22182 on May 24, 2004, 11:40:19 PM
Billiken Rebel,

I just bought a 1975 180V bowrider in decent condition but the floor needs to be replaced. There are some very soft spots and the seats are loose. When I tried to anchor the driver\'s seat with toggle bolts the toggles pulled right through the floor, leaving big holes.

I\'m following your progress with great interest and I have a couple of questions.

What will I see when I pull up the carpet? In your pictures it looks like the stock floor is fiberglassed plywood or particle board.

How is the stock floor attached to the hull? What is the best way to remove it?

Can the old floor be removed in one piece and used as a template for cutting out the new floor, or does it get destroyed during the removal process?

It seems that you have completely sealed the new plywood with epoxy to make it waterproof, is this what you did? Is the plywood sealed all the way around the hull?

Thanks for all the pics, they are very helpful.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 25, 2004, 06:04:31 AM
When I pulled up the carpet, I basically had what I did when I finished. Epoxied/Fiberglassed plywood. The floor was attached with U shaped nails/staples 2\" long (alot of them)(pain in the @$$) about every 5-6 inchs. My old floor could not be removed in one piece. Maybe if I wanted to take ALOT of extra time I could have, but I woud have had to dig out the epoxy around all those nails and pry them out, then cut around the edges, even then I believe some of it was glued down to the stringers. I used 2 pieces of plywood. I used the straight edge for the center joint. I measured the center stringer to the wall of the boat then added an inch or so. Placed the piece in trimmed alittle, placed it in, trimmed alittle more, etc. Till I had a perfect fit. Tedious but Perfect! Did the same on the other side. I covered the front of the boat first and used the scrap (leftover) pieces to finish the back spaces next to the motor.
Yes, I epoxyied the bottom of the boat and the stringers, The underneath side of the plywood, then laid it in and filled the edges around the plywood with body filler. then epoxied and fiberglassed meshed the entire top surface. 100% sealed. The only hole is the ski storage which drains to the back of the boat/bilge area. Oh yeah, going back I liquid nailed and air nailed the floor down to the stringers w/ 2\" straight nails. Hope this helps, Don\'t forget the expanding foam. I\'m hoping this makes it sounds more solid going over wakes. Of course I\'ll find out this weekend when I launch her for the summer @ Mark Twain Lake near Hannibal, MO. Any other questions just ask. :)
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 25, 2004, 06:11:48 AM
FLOOR REPLACEMENT

By Dave Casper

 

The floors of many of the Hydrostreams I’ve seen have been rotted in areas mainly because of improper methods of attaching items such as gas tanks, trim pumps, rear seats, battery hold downs etc. The floor of my Vegas was weak in these areas as well as some others so I decided to replace it. For those that are unsure of the condition of their floor there are a couple of ways to check it. First, if your hardware is mounted with wood screws directly into the wood, remove the screws and check the condition of the wood around the holes. If the wood is still solid, now would be a good time to install wood inserts as discussed in Mark Casper’s article. If the wood is rotting, you will have to find out how far the damage has spread. This can be done by either using a moisture meter to measure the moisture content in the wood, by probing the floor surface with a tool such as an awl to check for sponginess, or to simply keep removing rotted wood until it’s gone. Other areas of the floor can be generally checked simply by walking on it and checking for a soft or spongy feeling. A plastic mallet can also be used to more thoroughly determine the floor’s condition. By tapping the mallet all around the floor, you should get a solid feel and sound if the floor is in good condition. If you don’t, further investigation is necessary.

 

The first step is to remove the area of the floor that will be replaced. In my case, I removed all of the floor from the transom up to the front seat mounts including the driver’s seat area. The most critical thing to do is to find out exactly how thick your floor is. It should be ½\". There should be an opening in the floor by the drain plug where the thickness can be measured. To start cutting the floor out, you MUST use a saw that has a means to limit the depth of the cut. The first 5\" or so of the sides of the floor lay directly on the hull so if you cut too deep………..bad things will happen! At the back of the floor just in front of the transom, the floor also attaches directly to the hull where the hull curves upward from the drain plug – pad area to the transom. Also, there are two stringers approximately 6\" apart running front to back above the pad area. Mine also had two areas of a thin fiberglass layer laid between the stringers – probably not important if cut through because the floor will connect them. The critical areas to be very careful cutting near can been seen in the picture to the right. Begin by removing the carpet from the area of the floor to be replaced. If the carpet is going to be reused, use a razor knife and cut carefully so that the carpet can be replaced with the smallest seam possible. Next, draw lines on the floor to guide you while cutting the floor out. To make installing the new floor easier, make sure your lines and cuts are straight and square to each other. If the entire width of the floor is to be removed, try to determine where the edge of the plywood ends. In the case of my Vegas, it was easy – it butted up to within about ½\" of where the hull curves upward from the floor. Next, use a saw with the depth of cut set to the thickness of the floor and start cutting it out. Again, be VERY CAREFULL that you don’t cut into the hull. A couple of notes:

 

Cutting out the floor in sections makes it easier.

The sections of the floor over the edges and the stringers will probably still be glued down and difficult to remove. These areas can be removed by carefully using a wood chisel to remove the plywood one ply at a time – not the fastest job in the world!

 

My floor required replacing the area under the driver’s seat but the seat pedestal was still in good condition. I used a Sawzall and cut the pedestal off where it joined at the floor so it could be fiberglassed back on later. If enough of the floor has been removed to do it, now is obviously the time to inspect the hull from the inside and make any needed repairs.

 

Once the area of the floor to be replaced has all been removed, the next step is to prepare the area for installing the new floor. If the area has a wood–to–wood joint such as an area in the middle of the floor or any area that does not attach directly to the hull itself, that joint will have to be a scarf joint – ideally at a 10:1 ratio. My only scarf joints went from left to right behind the passenger seat and up and around the front of the driver’s seat. Scarf the appropriate joints in the existing floor using a small hand grinder with a sanding disc or something similar. Any smooth fiberglass surfaces must be scuffed with 80 grit sandpaper. Make sure all surfaces to be joined are cleaned of loose material, dirt and oil or grease.

 

Using ½\" marine plywood, cut to size the necessary wood to fit the area to be replaced keeping in mind any scarf joints that have to be made. After the new floor has been cut out, test fit and make changes until the floor fits correctly. If the floor is being replaced back near the transom, remember to leave a square opening for water to drain and to install a bilge pump if desired. Also, if the floor is going to butt right up to the side of the hull as pictured, a small gap is allowable because it will be filled with West System epoxy. Before starting to install the floor, make sure you have the following supplies:

 

West System #105 resin and #206 slow hardener

West System #403 Microfibers and #406 Colloidal silica fillers

West System # 810 fillable caulking tubes (2) and caulking gun

West System # 800 roller covers (2) and paint roller

Woven fiberglass cloth: 6oz.

Acetone

Paint brushes

Read over the following steps and become familiar with the timing before beginning. Prepare the underside of the floor for installation by wiping it clean with acetone. Also, clean the mating surfaces in the boat with acetone. Mix up some straight resin and hardener with no fillers. First, using a brush, coat the edges of the wood with epoxy, then using the paint roller, roll on a thin coat over the entire floor (this is to seal the wood.) When this first coat has reached it’s INITIAL cure, mix up another batch and apply a second coat. Initial cure is when the epoxy is no longer workable and no longer feels tacky but can still be dented with a thumbnail. Because the mixture has not fully cured, the next coat will still bond chemically to it. After applying the second coat, immediately wet out the corresponding areas in the boat where the floor will be attaching. Don’t forget to wet out the top of the stringers if the new floor will be covering them. As the second coat is nearing it’s initial cure, start preparing your next batch of epoxy. This batch will have fillers added depending on the type of joint. For a wood–to–wood joint, use #403 Microfibers. For a wood–to–fiberglass joint, use #406 Colloidal Silica. For wood–to–wood joints, thicken the epoxy mixture to a consistency of catsup using the Microfibers, and brush a layer onto the appropriate areas of wood in the boat. For wood–to–fiberglass joints, thicken the epoxy to a consistency of catsup using the Colloidal Silica. Brush or use a caulking tube and apply a layer over the appropriate fiberglass areas in the boat. Make sure all surfaces are completely covered with enough epoxy so that there will be a little squeeze-out when the surfaces are put together. Place the new floor in position and weight it down. Clean off any squeeze-out that is present. Also at this time, if there are any gaps around any of the edges, fill them in using the thickened mixture and the caulking gun. Let the epoxy fully cure.

 

The next step is to finish off the outer surface of the floor. Any exposed areas of cured epoxy must have what is known as the \"amine blush\", which is a wax-like film, removed. This film must be removed any time an additional coat of epoxy is to be applied over a fully cured coat, or proper bonding will not result. The easiest way to remove amine blush is to wash the surface using water and an abrasive pad. Dry the surface with paper towels before the dissolved blush can re-dry on it. The surface area should have a dull look to it. Any remaining glossy areas can be sanded with 80 grit sandpaper. The wood must be sealed and the joints between new and old must be covered with at least two layers of 6 oz. cloth extending at least 3\" out from the joint. The epoxy mixture for this procedure is \"straight\" – no fillers added. For my boat, I started by wetting out the surfaces along the joints. Then, I laid down one layer of pre-cut strips of cloth over the joints. This was followed by brushing on more epoxy over the cloth and working it in so that the fibers of the cloth were thoroughly saturated. Once this epoxy reached it’s initial cure I started on the next coat. Beginning at the back, I started to apply a coat of epoxy over the entire surface. This resulted in wetting out the main area as well as starting the second coat over the joints. As I went along, I laid down a large layer of cloth (this had been pre-cut) over the entire area, including going over and slightly beyond the cloth already over the joints. Again, this provided a single layer of cloth over the main area and a second layer over the joints. Epoxy was also applied over the cloth – working it into the fibers. Once this step was completed and the epoxy reached it’s initial cure, another coat was applied using the paint roller. One more coat was applied in the same way.

 

After the epoxy had fully cured, the job was completed by painting the parts of the floor that would not be covered by carpet. Besides making the floor look better, the paint would provide UV protection for the epoxy. Once again, remove all of the amine blush. Sand the surfaces smooth if desired. Final sand with 180 – 220 grit to improve paint and carpet glue adhesion. And finally, paint the exposed areas of the floor.

 

If anyone has questions, feel free to e-mail me @ gnhhydro@aol.com.


I found this website www.hydrostream.org/ArticleArchives/Floor.htm (http://www.hydrostream.org/ArticleArchives/Floor.htm)

It helped me alot when I first started.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: jack22182 on May 25, 2004, 09:12:49 AM
This is great information, very helpful. Here\'s a few more questions when you get the time:

Did you use the method described in the article of cutting up the floor with a fixed depth saw to get it out, or did you just extract it piece by piece? Sawing up the floor while it is still in the boat, even with the depth fixed, makes me nervous and I think I might like to avoid that if I can.

Was your old floor 1/2\" plywood? Was it epoxied and/or fiberglassed top and bottom?

You mention that you epoxied the top and underside of the plywood - obviously the bottom must be done before the wood goes in - did you also do the topside before installation?

Did you attach the seat pedestals directly to the floor and fiberglass them in, as described in the Hydrostream article? Mine currently just sit on top of the carpeted floor. It looks like metal wood inserts go through the floor and small machine screws were used to hold the seats in place. I\'m wondering how I deal with the seats and still maintain the total seal of the floor.

Speaking of that, your replacement design does seem to be made with total seal in mind. If any spray, rain or dripping wet kids come into the boat it looks like you are trying to keep any water at all from getting up underneath the floor between the hull and the floor. Am I correct? So the water would (hopefully) just drain back to the sump/bilge area? I would be concerned about water getting trapped up underneath here if we got caught in a heavy downpour - I guess a complete, total epoxy/fiberglass seal is the key, and the floor essentially becomes the new bottom of the boat. So my biggest concerns are how do I mount all of my seats back in while maintaining the seal?

Thanks again for sharing all of this good information. Please let us know how your trial run goes and well you think the expanding foam helps.

Jack
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: irishtomp on May 25, 2004, 01:14:44 PM
I used an air cutoff tool with a 3\" disc to cut through the floor and fiberglass. This gives you very good control of depth cut. You can feel when you have broken through the board. My 2 cents worth.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on May 25, 2004, 05:21:26 PM
Well Jack,

You\'ve answered most of your own questions correctly. I don\'t plan on mounting my seats down. Like you said that would put holes in the floor allowing water to seap in and rot wood.

I know this subject is quite long but if you could start back on page one and read the entire thing you pickup allot of useful info from me and everyone else. If you go to that above website you can also get the step by step pictures.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: jack22182 on May 25, 2004, 07:07:51 PM
Thanks a million - I think I have the info I need to get started. Again, keep us posted on your trial run this weekend, good luck!
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on May 31, 2004, 10:08:07 PM
Bilken...how did you put the bow beam into place....It is almost impossible to get to to replace...as it is approx. 20\" into the bow under the fiberglass from the stringer that you placed the holes into...am having trouble with that particular area..the rest is easy enough to replace...but need some advice about the bow stringer replacement...thanks...
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: jack22182 on June 01, 2004, 09:53:05 AM
Billiken Rebel,

I just scanned this thread for answers/confirmations to these questions and did not see them, and could not be certain from the pictures - when you get a minute:

What epoxy product did you use to seal the plywood?

Did you use epoxy and fiberglass fabric for all the plywood, or just seal it with a couple of coats of epoxy?

With regard to preparing the plywood panels, is this the general process you followed? 1) Cut panels to correct size, 2) Epoxy seal (or seal/fiberglass) the bottom of the plywood panels, 3) Attach the panels to the boat with screws/nails/Liquid Nails, 4) Once the panels are in and fastened, fill and seal the top, sides and joints?

The big question is do I have to use fiberglass fabric for the entire top and bottom of the plywood, or is it sufficient to seal it with a couple of coats of resin, and again, what products did you use. In one post you mentioned $22 a gallon at Home Depot or Lowes.

Glad to hear your maiden voyage went well (after the shift cable was fixed).

Jack
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on June 01, 2004, 12:03:16 PM
Epoxy Product was Bondo

I sealed the underneath of the plywood with one heavy coat of the epoxy only, No fiberglass mesh.

1)  Yes cut plywood to correct size.
2)  Yes coated bottom just seal no mesh
3)  A bead of Liquid nail on top of stringers and bottom of boat along edges where the floor came into contact with, laid floor, air nailed in place into stringers only,
4)  one coat of epoxy on top with strips of mesh over seams, second coat of epoxy with full sheets of mesh on top.<<<5)  Got most products at Home Depot or Lowes. The wife says it was more like $30/gal. They were a Bondo product, which I believe is a well respected product.


For anyone interested: The foam in the bottom was a complete success I feel. The boat had a lot more of a solid sound and was a lot quieter. FYI

Happy Boating!!!  :cool:
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: jack22182 on June 01, 2004, 03:29:50 PM
Thank you sir. We are in countdown mode to get ready for the project here.

Have fun and keep us posted!

Jack
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: lilsinker on June 04, 2004, 05:36:42 PM
Well, It\'s my turn. I\'m starting to tear mine out this weekend. Honestly, I\'m looking forward to this like a hernia operation, but it\'s worth it in the end. I\'m wondering what I will find under there seeing as it\'s a \'68 and is still all original. I\'ll try to get some pics posted next week of this fiasco. I want to get this done because the only water my boat has seen has been my sweat!
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on June 04, 2004, 11:34:02 PM
Since you are in St. Louis, let me know if you need any help.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 06, 2004, 10:53:56 PM
I\'m beginning cutting mine out tomorrow.  I\'m thinking of just bolting two boards to the sides of the stringers instead of cutting them out.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on June 07, 2004, 06:39:19 AM
That sounds ok as long as the original boards aren\'t too rotted I guess. Good luck
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: norman123456 on June 07, 2004, 03:54:55 PM
Hey guys i just picked up the most handy book i have found yet on this topic and it\'s only $2.99 from west marine.  It outlines all types of boat repair projects.  It has a very good section about replaceing floors and stringers as well as tons more fiberglass and epoxy projects.  If you desire more detailed info then buck up and spend the $2.99 on this book it has given me direction to this project.  Link is below

This is worth way more than the $2.99

West System Repair book (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=28521:3qcl39b7)

West System product Home Page (http://www.westsystem.com/frames/tier1/home.htm:3qcl39b7)

These are also good books on engine tune-up and repair.

West Marine - Engine Tune-UP (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=4448&catalogId=10001&classNum=11902&subdeptNum=11002&storeNum=16:3qcl39b7)
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 07, 2004, 08:32:50 PM
Oh my god, you guys weren\'t kidding about WET STINKING FOAM.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 07, 2004, 08:44:33 PM
What did you guys use to cut through the fiberglass mesh around the edges, and the bottom of the stringers?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on June 08, 2004, 06:50:04 AM
I used a Dremel with a cutting bit. It was slow but I was careful.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on June 08, 2004, 08:20:55 AM
Biliken...how did you replace your bow stringer?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on June 08, 2004, 08:26:56 AM
It was in pretty decent shape really. I did however bolt 3 cedar boards to it for more support. (See past pics)
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 08, 2004, 11:11:36 PM
I got most of my floor out.  I am going to the bench seat in back, and to the walk through window in front.  It\'s some work, i\'m buying the new wood tomorrow and epoxying it.  Probably going to put new floor in this weekend.  Wish I had a camera to post pics to help you guys out. Interesting stuff to say the least, I\'m a rookie and i think i\'m doing ok.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 09, 2004, 12:31:01 PM
Went to the marine store, the guy there recommended I use pressure treated wood, and seal the seams with epoxy and fiberglass mesh.  He did not recommend sealing the whole slew of boards with the epoxy.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on June 09, 2004, 07:53:51 PM
Quote from: \"akw4572\":2lrlrpjn
What did you guys use to cut through the fiberglass mesh around the edges, and the bottom of the stringers?

I am midway through a complete teardown right now.  I am using a 3\" cutting wheel on an air tool.  

It cuts fiberglass and hull equally well.  Be careful.
It is hard to get into tight spots, so I will be using Dremel with cutting tool for those tight spots.

Snoop\'n :p
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Anonymous on June 09, 2004, 07:54:56 PM
Quote from: \"akw4572\":299le8lv
What did you guys use to cut through the fiberglass mesh around the edges, and the bottom of the stringers?

I am midway through a complete teardown right now.  I am using a 3\" cutting wheel on an air tool.  

It cuts fiberglass and hull equally well.  Be careful.
It is hard to get into tight spots, so I will be using Dremel with cutting tool for those tight spots.

Snoop\'n :p
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 10, 2004, 06:33:37 PM
Where should I buy the foam, and what the #### is it called?  Just any foam in a can?
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on June 10, 2004, 09:44:16 PM
I got mine at Home Depot and Lowes. It is called Great Stuff. I used approx 10 lg. cans
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Racindude45 on June 10, 2004, 09:51:37 PM
Have used Great Stuff in the home it truely is great stuff.  :cool:
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Racindude45 on June 10, 2004, 09:59:56 PM
Hey, just got thinking the other day. Not very often this happens but, wondered about anchoring my boat seats down with furniture leg anchors. You know the things you drill holes then hammer in from the bottom side. Then just using bolts and \"el\" brackets attached to the seat. The anchors could be sealed in place and would allow for the removal of the seats. Whatcha think?  :cool:
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: lilsinker on June 11, 2004, 09:21:21 AM
I like that idea. I would like that for making room for camping gear...etc.. in the boat for long weekends.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: norman123456 on June 11, 2004, 02:30:47 PM
Hey Guys,

Here is some info on how to mount hardware or seats to the deck and prevent damage to the wood.  You can find this same materal and lots more info on this page.

West System (http://www.westsystem.com/:1xv6lrz0)


Bonding fasteners and hardware

Installing screws and other threaded fasteners with WEST SYSTEM epoxy dramatically improves load carrying capacity by spreading the fastener\'s load into a greater area of the substrate. There are several methods or levels of hardware bonding depending on the loads on the hardware.

Basic fastener bonding

For improved pullout strength and waterproof connections, the easiest method is to simply wet out stripped fastener holes and new pilot holes before installing the screws. Epoxy penetrates the fiber around the hole, effectively increasing the fastener diameter. Epoxy also provides a stronger interface with the fastener threads than wood fiber and keeps out water.

(http://www.westsystem.com/images/use-15.gif)

1. Wet out a standard-size pilot hole. Work the mixture well into the hole with a pipe cleaner or syringe (Figure 15). Thicken a second coat of epoxy as necessary for stripped or oversized holes.
2. Insert the fastener in the hole and allow the epoxy to cure.

Advanced fastener bonding

For greater strength and stability, drill oversized holes to increase the exposed substrate area and the amount of epoxy around the fastener. If the fastener/hardware can be clamped by other means, the oversized hole can be extended to the end of the fastener.

(http://www.westsystem.com/images/use-16.gif)

1. Drill oversized holes 2/3-3/4 the depth of the fastener. The diameter may be up to twice the fastener diameter (Figure 16a).
2. Drill a normal sized pilot hole at the bottom of the oversized hole to the full length of the fastener. The normal sized pilot hole serves to hold or clamp the hardware in position until the epoxy cures.
3. Wet out the holes and the fastener with epoxy. Allow the epoxy to thoroughly soak into the exposed end grain of the wood.
4. Fill the hole with thickened epoxy/adhesive filler. Use 404 High-density (preferred) or 406 Colloidal Silica.
5. Install the fasteners with just enough force to hold the hardware in place. Allow the epoxy to cure thoroughly before applying load to the hardware (Figure 16b).

Bonding hardware

Bonding hardware goes a step beyond bonding the fasteners only. By bonding the hardware base directly to the surface you further increase hardware load capacity and provide a solid bearing surface for the hardware. It also seals the wood underneath, and is a stronger, longer lasting attachment than bonding the fasteners only. It is especially useful to mount hardware on curved, uneven or unlevel surfaces.

(http://www.westsystem.com/images/use-17.gif)(http://www.westsystem.com/images/use-18.gif)

1. Prepare the mounting surface and the hardware base for good adhesion.
2. Wet out the oversized hole with epoxy. Allow the epoxy to soak into the exposed end grain of the wood (as with faster bonding).
3. Coat the bottom contact surface of the hardware with unthickened epoxy. Wire brush or sand the wet epoxy into the surface with 50-grit sandpaper.
4. Inject a non-sagging epoxy/404 or 406 mixture into the hole. Use enough mixture so there are no voids in the hole after inserting the fastener. Coat the bottom of the hardware and the fastener threads with thickened epoxy (Figure 17).
5. Place the hardware in position. Insert and tighten fasteners until a small amount of the mixture squeezes out of the joint (Figure 18).
6. Remove excess epoxy or shape into a fillet. Allow the epoxy to cure at least 24 hours before applying load to the hardware. Allow more time in cool weather.

Casting a base

Use the thickened epoxy to cast a base under the hardware when mounting hardware to a curved or uneven surface, or mounting hardware at an angle to the surface.

(http://www.westsystem.com/images/use-19.gif)

1. Prepare the fasteners, holes, substrate and base as described above.
2. Bond small blocks to the substrate to support the base at the desired height and position (e.g. winch base, Figure 19a)
3. Apply enough thickened epoxy to cover the blocks. If the gap between the base and the surface is over 1/2\", fill the gap in two separate layers to avoid exotherm.
4. Place the hardware in position, resting on the blocks (Figure 19b) and install the fasteners.
5. Smooth the excess epoxy into the desired fillet shape around the base (Figure 19c). Allow the epoxy to cure fully before loading. Protect exposed epoxy from UV.

Bonding studs

Bond threaded rods or studs into the substrate (instead of bolts or screws) and attach the hardware with nuts. This variation is appropriate for many engine, motor or machine installations. Coat the base with wax /mold release to make the hardware removable. Although the hardware is not \"bonded\" to the substrate, the epoxy still provides a bearing surface that perfectly matches and supports the base of the hardware.

(http://www.westsystem.com/images/use-20.gif)

1. Prepare the studs/threaded rods by waxing the upper ends (above the surface) and cleaning the lower ends (below the surface).
2. Place a nut and washer on the studs, wet out the lower ends and push them into the epoxy filled holes. Allow the epoxy to cure thoroughly before tightening the nuts (Figure 20).

Removing fasteners

If you know that you will want to remove the fastener, you can coat the threads with wax or mold release (contaminating the surface enough to prevent a good bond).

Remove a permanently bonded fastener by applying heat to the head of the fastener with a soldering iron or propane torch. Use a heat shield to protect the surrounding area. Heat will travel down the fastener, softening the epoxy in contact with it. At about 120°F the epoxy should soften enough to allow the fastener to be backed out. Allow more time for heat to travel down longer or larger diameter fasteners.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Racindude45 on June 11, 2004, 05:29:29 PM
I like the looks of that hinge! the pin could be removed and re-installed to hold a seat or other items in place.  :cool:
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: The Billiken Rebel on June 11, 2004, 09:54:34 PM
Do you guys really have problems with your seats bouncing around? I only had this problem once, but instead of a seta it was my Mother-in-law. After I realized I was the only one laughing, I realized this was a bad thing. Oops? Seriously, My unmounted seats don\'t move around really.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 11, 2004, 10:34:02 PM
Got all my materials today, will commence the floor laying tomorrow.  I\'ll let you guys know how it turns out.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Racindude45 on June 11, 2004, 11:29:24 PM
It\'s not so much the seats bouncing around, but more so the kids moving them around while I\'m not looking. After leaving the Army I\'m kinda perticular about a place for everything and everything in it\'s place, if you know what I mean. I guess what I\'m sayin is I prefer things unmovable unless I move them (controll freak I guess).  :cool:
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: lilsinker on June 12, 2004, 11:46:33 AM
Maybe it\'s just me. Or playing the way I do up on the river. I would love to go flying in behind those barges and jumping out of those huge rollers in their wake like I was on a jet ski. Needless to say, I beat the snot out of that little Baretta that I had. If the seats hadn\'t been bolted down I\'d have been fishin\' them out.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 14, 2004, 08:10:54 AM
Got the floor all framed and the ski well floor in.  Taking longer than i anticipated, but I\'m almost there!
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: akw4572 on June 18, 2004, 11:31:40 PM
Quote from: \"akw4572\":q8luwucg
Got the floor all framed and the ski well floor in.  Taking longer than i anticipated, but I\'m almost there!

ahhhhhhh at last.  The only thing left is to lay the carpet.  A word to the wise, the stringers I used were thicker than the originals.  I ended up having to cut the metal strip that went around my ski well, as the well will be about a 1/2\" \"thinner\" on the width, didn\'t think of that ahead of time.  All that\'s left for me and my dad is to lay the carpet, get the carburator cleaned and adjusted, replace the plugs, wires, and points, and away I go (hopefully).  Thanks for the tip on the great stuff foam, it worked well.
Title: Replacing Floor
Post by: Cedric on September 02, 2004, 10:43:02 AM
I replaced the stringers, foam and floor in my boat.  The biggest problem was getting the stringers dead level for the new marine plywood floor.  The most time consuming was glassing the new stringers in.  One thing they never tell you is you do need to glass the new plywood floor on top and botton before reinstalling the floor.  Also glass the stringers full height.  I used 2 part foam that you mix to activate which I picked up at a marina.  ($230 for 2 one gallon cans parts A/B.  Took 4 gallons to do the complete floor.)  Be careful not to overfill the cells which will cause heaving but fill all empty cells.  You can top off the cells with spray foam which will help glue the floor down but use sparingly.  If you make a mistake and get heaving and need to pull up the floor coat the foam with fiberglass resin to seal the foam.  The foam in a laid condition is pretty much waterproof.